Curse

Ariovist Lynxkind · Jan 14, 2010, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

We're not talking about MINOR bugs tough. Dhumm had half of his skillbar not working when released, and that was clearly noticeable. Costumes had obvious glitches. There was probably little testing on those in the urge of introducing content in a timely manner.

But hey, that's ok, I'm an IT engineer and I know bugs are pretty much the norm. They were acceptable since I though their focus was on "pressing issues" like balance, PvP bots, security issues, while Dhumm, Wintersday Costumes and the Jingle Moa were secondary projects.

Yet those secondary projects seem to be the only ones to advance, and this leaves me wondering about their organization.

Indeed. That's it. I really wonder why they felt the need to put EVERYTHING they had in mind in a cumulative update, when they themselves called some of those issues "pressing". Isn't their fix urgent? Shouldn't those "pressing issues" receive a solution now, even before they focus on making Tactics more viable for Warriors, or whatever?

On the first part: I guess it comes down to the fact that it has been a busy few months, as it usually is this time of year. the TK might be able to spot these bugs in new content before they make it to the live game, thus reducing them in future, but they have only just implemented the TK and working the problems out with that too.

Of the latter part: This could be in part to them missing their own timetable, and also in part to lay the foundation for changes later on. This is their first time working with the TK, so a lot of things may have come up in feedback that normally would have taken a few months if it were just changed and put in the game like previously. Who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Don't worry about it dude. If they screw up this update too bad, they'll only have to cater for a small fraction of the playerbase..

Funniest thing, I see this kinda comment in a lot of games, and rarely does it ring true cause a lot of people who say 'update this or I leave' rarely do, and if they do half of them return anyway...

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Let me get this straight: inflation causes prices to fall? The rich get richer because they get less for the items they sell, while the poor get poorer for exactly the same reason? So, if a poor person sells a sword for 10k that used to be worth 25k, he gets poorer, while a rich person selling the same sword for the same price would get richer? I'm a bit confused as to how this works.

Or are you saying that the problem is that the poor person, being deprived of 15k on the transaction, is somehow not getting wealthier as fast as the rich person, who also gets 15k less, but was getting wealthier at the same or greater rate when both received 25k? And this is bad despite the fact that the poor person now has more wealth in absolute terms?

Wealth is not absolute. It is relative.

Inflation of ectos doesn't cause prices to fall, but SF makes it far easier to farm items. This decreases their price. In other words, if you happen to pick up (insert item here) while playing, the value of said item is far less than it would be if SF didn't exist, because SF has probably been used to saturate the market with them.

Inflation of ectos causes the relative wealth possessed by those who do not use SF to drop, while increasing the relative wealth of those who do.

Now, personally, I couldn't care less about SF's effects on the economy. I'm just explaining what it does to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Bumping this because the anti-SF crowd boils down to this one lame argument.

How can you say it doesn't affect anyone else when it removes the purpose of playing entire professions?

As for something replacing it...Well, there is currently nothing in the game that can truly replace SF. There is nothing right now that can provide the sheer degree of invulnerability possessed by it. OF can replace SF's role, but it won't perform it nearly as well. Now, it is possible that sometime in the future Anet will introduce something equally (or even more) broken, but that is not a certainty. After all, I have yet to see a buff for dervishes that gives them back the sort of power they had at their introduction.

Who says balance isn't possible? It's exceedingly unlikely, but it's not impossible. And even if it was, it most certainly would not mean that we shouldn't strive for it. You'd have to be foolish to think that the game can't at least become more balanced than it is now.

Reformed · Jan 14, 2010, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

How can you say it doesn't affect anyone else when it removes the purpose of playing entire professions?

Repeating something false over and over again doesn't make it true...unless you are a politician.

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Why should I play, say, a mesmer when I could be a SF sin?

Sid Doog · Jan 14, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Whats the point really to nerfin SF everyone that has a sin elly or what ever has made millions from it ,nerfin it now is just pointless lol. just my 1 1/2 cents

Ariovist Lynxkind · Jan 14, 2010, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Why should I play, say, a mesmer when I could be a SF sin?

Because it is a challenge, makes things interesting, change things up a bit.

I know I myself dont particularly like to play one build or style all the time, so I have quite a few chars across all the professions bar Paragon (never really liked that one for some reason...) just to change things up a bit from time to time.

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 06:09 PM // 18:09

There are easier ways to create a challenge than switching to another profession. Using an assassin build that isn't SF, MSDB, or critscythe, for example.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 14, 2010, 06:13 PM // 18:13

If all the perma sins left, would we really notice their absence (outside of ToA and doomlore)? I barely see them at ZQ outposts anyways.

Reformed · Jan 14, 2010, 06:15 PM // 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Why should I play, say, a mesmer when I could be a SF sin?

After 50+ pages I can't believe this old horse is being drawn back out for flogging and using the weakest link in PvE as a support to boot! Last time you tried this I told you to roll something other than a Dervish, did you? It has absolutely nothing to do with SF and everything to do with playing a bottom tier PvE profession as a main.

How did you survive during the days of B/P, Steel Wall and countless others? Back then you either played what the group wanted, profession AND build, or /kick. Unfair, maybe, but this didn't just start with SF there are years worth of precedent especially in high-end PvE. Team builds typically revolve around 3-4 professions, that means the majority will always be left out.

niek2004 · Jan 14, 2010, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom

QFT

It's been said that there's pvpers on TK, yet now and then some ignant person has to make a comment like this:

A friend of me who got in TK told me that it was an unorganized mess, clueless people were discussing the PvP skill balance and that nothing good would ever come out of it.

I assumed he was talking about PvE players, my bad?

Del · Jan 14, 2010, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

I left a long time ago because of SF and 600 smite and all the other gimmick builds they allowed.These builds made thngs accessible for less hardcore players that aren't into grinding hours of their life to acquire. With the increased availability of high end items, i felt my epeen begin to get smaller and more flaccid, and my worth as a player begin to diminish. Curse 600/smite, ursan and SF for making stuff available to people with less grind and time investment to a meaningless virtual life.

Fixed that for you.

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

After 50+ pages I can't believe this old horse is being drawn back out for flogging and using the weakest link in PvE as a support to boot! Last time you tried this I told you to roll something other than a Dervish, did you? It has absolutely nothing to do with SF and everything to do with playing a bottom tier PvE profession as a main.

How did you survive during the days of B/P, Steel Wall and countless others? Back then you either played what the group wanted, profession AND build, or /kick. Unfair, maybe, but this didn't just start with SF there are years worth of precedent especially in high-end PvE. Team builds typically revolve around 3-4 professions, that means the majority will always be left out.

I can't believe people are still dragging out the "don't like it, don't use it" horse.

First of all, I don't recall mentioning the dervish in this case (though I easily could have). Second, I did not survive during those days, because I was not around. Third, the fact that you did indeed have to do that did not mean it was right.

Team builds revolve around 3-4 professions because they are typically overpowered and the other 6 professions are typically underpowered. Fix the imbalance, and you would have more variety in team builds. Probably not 8 players of different professions, but it would certainly be better than what we have now. And nerfing SF is the required first step, because it's the most stupidly overpowered thing out there. If you don't do that in some fashion, anything else you do to fix the rest of the game won't mean jack, because people will keep right on using SF to steamroll through it, leaving most professions in the dust.

Finally, I don't recall mentioning anything about one's ability to get into groups. Being able to get into a group with a crappy profession or build does not make it any less crappy and purposeless.

toocooltang · Jan 14, 2010, 08:23 PM // 20:23

@tom

Most highend players leave because of the gimmick builds but not because what reasons you have listed, epeen, loss of prestige etc. DOA used to be a hard area that required 2-3hours to complete, even with gimmicks like ursan. Before ursan the rewards for DOA were great, much like the time investment and skill required to complete the zone. Now with the SF gimmick, DOA has essentually turned into a joke area, much like sorrows furance.

The real problem with SF, 600/smite, and the like is they allow things to be completed 3x faster than every.....other.....teambuild.....out there. What do you think balanced means? Physway? Cryway? Searingflames? Balanced means that any of the meta team builds dont have a major advantage over the other team builds. Balanced means the team with the better players utilize their bars better and complete zones faster, not the otherway around.

and P.S. most SF and 600/smite builds require LOTS of PVE skills and humans so thats alot of EOTN grinding.

The Drunkard · Jan 14, 2010, 08:47 PM // 20:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

@tom

Most highend players leave because of the gimmick builds but not because what reasons you have listed, epeen, loss of prestige etc. DOA used to be a hard area that required 2-3hours to complete, even with gimmicks like ursan. Before ursan the rewards for DOA were great, much like the time investment and skill required to complete the zone. Now with the SF gimmick, DOA has essentually turned into a joke area, much like sorrows furance.

I thought it was because there hasn't been any new content to the game since Eotn, and people were bored of playing the same thing over and over again for a few shinies.

Reformed · Jan 14, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

snip

I'm Switzerland, nowhere in that post did I imply or allude to "don't like it, don't use it" or anywhere else for that matter because I don't care. SFers have never effected my gameplay experience. In fact the only thing that changed is occasionally I have to trade ecto from someone with an A next to their name instead of say, an Mo.

You play the game with people who played back then and the status quo is very much still intact. Dayway is a self-fulfilling prophecy and so will every other team build be in the future regardless of what happens to SF. Little Johnny PuG still isn't going to get into groups and teams will always center around <50% of available professions. This is not an excuse to leave SF alone, I don't care if they flat out remove it from the game, it's a simple statement of fact with precedent to back it up.

They can't "balance" PvE because it's never been balanced. To that end there is no possible way to make every profession desirable when party slots and skillbar compression are at a premium. They tried with Ursan, the players issued a teary eyed veto, it backfired horribly. This is why the "removes the purpose of playing entire professions" point is so utterly absurd. Some people are simply impossible to please.

reaper with no name · Jan 14, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

I wasn't poking fun at you with that part. It was referring to the fact that both sides are continually bringing up the same arguments because this debate has been going on so long. Repetition is inevitable.

In practice, it has always been the case that certain professions are unwanted. But there is no reason to think that it necessarily must be this way. In theory, it is certainly possible to make each profession useful to a group in it's own unique way. Will it happen? Almost certainly not. But it is possible to take at least a few steps towards it. SF is one such step.

Martin Alvito · Jan 14, 2010, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Wealth is not absolute. It is relative.

Inflation of ectos doesn't cause prices to fall, but SF makes it far easier to farm items. This decreases their price. In other words, if you happen to pick up (insert item here) while playing, the value of said item is far less than it would be if SF didn't exist, because SF has probably been used to saturate the market with them.

Inflation of ectos causes the relative wealth possessed by those who do not use SF to drop, while increasing the relative wealth of those who do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Balanced means that any of the meta team builds dont have a major advantage over the other team builds. Balanced means the team with the better players utilize their bars better and complete zones faster, not the other way around.

Excellent posts. Win economics and a win definition. Both are rare. You deserve commendation.

Winterclaw · Jan 14, 2010, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Has anyone else not read all 1k posts?

Anyways I want to know why SF is getting nerfed but Mist Form isn't getting buffed at least so it protects you from physical interrupts and conditions applied by physical attacks.

The Drunkard · Jan 14, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Has anyone else not read all 1k posts?

Anyways I want to know why SF is getting nerfed but Mist Form isn't getting buffed at least so it protects you from physical interrupts and conditions applied by physical attacks.

Why should mist form get buffed? It going to be sub-par to terra tank anyway.

Zehnchu · Jan 14, 2010, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Why should mist form get buffed? It going to be sub-par to terra tank anyway.

terra tanks will be good for 2 months unless Anet/test krew also added to the list after reading this thread.